[TonyP]

I recently switched from Palm Centro to Google Android Nexus One, although I've been a Palm user since the beginning with Palm / US Robotics. I've been a Natara Bonsai user since the beginning as well. Bonsai became my flat file database on my palm devices. So what I struggle to understand is a product (Bonsai) and company (Natara) with such strong customer loyalty would be so slow to expand to other platforms and OSes when Palm began to decline. It appears decisions were made not to grow the product or business.

There is no comparable product for Android or iPhone/iPad or Blackberry or Windows Mobile or webOs that is as simple to use with a desktop sync option to complement it. I'm not talking checklist, they are a dime a dozen. Simple outlining tools that give the user the ability to customize them the way they wish and which best meets their needs.

Natara has ignored the other mobile platforms too long and needs to move quickly to offer products on Android (growing), iPhone/iPad (maintaining), Blackberry, and webOS. I may eventually go back to Palm/HP and webOs, but once a comparable outlined to Bonsai is available on Android and I convert my data to the new product it's unlikely I'll ever move back to bonsai.

I'm not sure about other Bonsai users, but I'm not interested in moving the data in Bonsai to the clouds (RTM, tasks, etc) I want it with me and able to sync to my pc maybe my iPad but I want it with me. Bonsai is the best simple flat file application in my toolkit, and I'd like to continue using it on whatever platform or OS I'm using but for now I carry my Google Nexus One and my Palm Centro(PDA mode) only for Bonsai. As soon as I find an Android app that will do what I need then I'll switch and not look back. I'm testing mind mapping apps now to see if they meet my needs.

Natara you have a short window of opportunity to keep your loyal customers but you've been slow to adapt to the changing smartphone landscape, get moving!

[ShepherdJim]

I have to add my voice to Tony above. I've been running Palm from "the beginning" up until now -- what I have say looks to be very much "the end of the line".

I've grown to depend on DayNotez to a LARGE degree and Bonsai a little less so.

I'm migrating to Android and have been desperately searching for replacement "apps" without any joy.

I guess the overwhelming Natara silence here in the Forums is answer to our pleas.

Very sorry and unhappy,

Jim Child
Bristol, Maine USA

[Albert]

I agree. I have a small palm Z22, and I carry it around for ONE reason, Bonsai. It's the most logical, intuitive, easy to use outliner. I've downloaded every available outliner, list maker, todo'er in the android market; and they all suck. So I now carry an android phone AND my palm, which is stupid to me. Palm isn't on the way out, it's already out; so I am not sure why such a popular piece of software with such a loyal following is not available for Android and iphone.

You would make a lot of people happy and productive if you port this to android asap. Because there's nothing close in the market; you have a unique product. I am almost willing to pay a programmer to write it for the android if you guys say you will not be supporting the android platform.

[yurkennis]

 Albert, on 13 September 2010 - 10:24 AM, said:

I am almost willing to pay a programmer to write it for the android if you guys say you will not be supporting the android platform.

Albert, I think you are not alone: http://www.natarasof...post__p__26482.

[B.S.]

In some senses, the original poster does Natara, indeed, all app makers, a disservice.

IMO, the problem is not so much the app as there is no sync software upon which they can depend and build.

Palm is 'dead.' Which, for our purposes, is to say that the problem is solved and there should be nothing to do going forward with it. Any Palm functionality, however, depended upon HotSync. An MS (or Palm influenced) facility.

KDE 4, breaks all sync software, and it has yet to be replaced with anything. Bonsai, or any app, could exist on the pda, and the desktop, but there's no way to connect the two.

I am seeing hope for Android, finally, in that sync'ing is possible via wi-fi (rather than via data plans which I will never have).

Not to say that Bonsai wouldn't do well to do their app in Java (?) [ick, I know], but AFAICT that is the path to Android. Let alone to every other OS. Bearing in mind that an OS may not (yet) be able to sync with the PDA on that OS. [However, workarounds could be accomplished in the meantime - e.g. Suppose a Java version running on Kubuntu shared (data) files with Windows, which could then hotsync under current functionality. Not great, I know, but we're all in a hurry up and wait for Android to become real, situation, at the moment and having to do this for other things, currently, anyways.]

But, please, distinguish between the app, and the (lack of) functionality the app depends upon.

Bonsai may not be Natara's day job - they cannot, by themselves, re-invent HotSync on every OS that flies by. Until long after it's been proven that the fly is going to stick around.

Silence makes sense - to say 'yes' makes a commitment they may not be able to honour as they do not yet understand the full scope and environment of the 'new' system. To say 'no' cuts off potential, should adapting to that environment turn out to be manageable after all.

But ... is a java version reasonable? [Even if ick.]

OTOH - make them an offer. For the right $ amount, perhaps they'll license the source to you for development on another platform.

Regardless of the above, I agree - moving forward from my Treo won't happen any time soon, as I see no migration path, to anything reasonable / non-cloud.

[reesd]

B.S., on 05 October 2010 - 04:23 AM, said:

In some senses, the original poster does Natara, indeed, all app makers, a disservice.

IMO, the problem is not so much the app as there is no sync software upon which they can depend and build.

...

Regardless of the above, I agree - moving forward from my Treo won't happen any time soon, as I see no migration path, to anything reasonable / non-cloud.

I'm not sure why you are anti-data service, but I think you are in the minority. For the rest of us (including the first poster) the cloud would work great (even better than tethering), and its very doable without any additional infrastructure on Android or iPhone.

I'll add they don't even have to write it all themselves, instead they could sync with one of the existing cloud services like Remember The Milk. That would mean losing a lot of information/features unfortunately, but it allow some data to easily be immediately accessible on iphone/android using other apps.

d

This post has been edited by reesd: 05 November 2010 - 08:30 AM

[B.S.]

reesd, on 05 November 2010 - 08:26 AM, said:

I'm not sure why you are anti-data service, but I think you are in the minority.

I don't agree. I would agree that the majority of people have been suckered by the carriers into believing that it's the only way. One does NOT need to be connected, especially in this application, 24x7. This is not IM. (Blackberries have bastardized e-mail into IM, and we all need to have a life. Or more of one.)

Monthly data charges are way too expensive, especially here in Canada. It is my data, it should not have to transit the public internet, in any form. I should not have to incur additional perpetual expense to contain and make use of my own data.

reesd, on 05 November 2010 - 08:26 AM, said:

For the rest of us (including the first poster) the cloud would work great (even better than tethering), and its very doable without any additional infrastructure on Android or iPhone.

You presume the rest of the world is in your particular infrastructure situation, and that is most certainly not the case.

reesd, on 05 November 2010 - 08:26 AM, said:

I'll add they don't even have to write it all themselves, instead they could sync with one of the existing cloud services like Remember The Milk. That would mean losing a lot of information/features unfortunately, but it allow some data to easily be immediately accessible on iphone/android using other apps.

Then you have reinforced my point, thanks. The infrastructure does not exist to properly sync without loss of functionality, and so the lack of such functionality within an application cannot reasonably be blamed upon the application creator. Why put functionality into a product that cannot be replicated to a minor cloud application?

It oughta be better - but we're not there yet. Hopefully, some day, the world will once again wake up to the idea of standards, cross-platform functionality, and not being a perpetual feeder of the carrier bottom line charging ridiculous fees. It's my data - I neither need, nor want, a carrier's fingers involved.

[slwenglish]

B.S., on 05 November 2010 - 02:00 PM, said:

I don't agree.
<snip>
Monthly data charges are way too expensive, especially here in Canada. It is my data, it should not have to transit the public internet, in any form. I should not have to incur additional perpetual expense to contain and make use of my own data.

<snip>
It oughta be better - but we're not there yet. Hopefully, some day, the world will once again wake up to the idea of standards, cross-platform functionality, and not being a perpetual feeder of the carrier bottom line charging ridiculous fees. It's my data - I neither need, nor want, a carrier's fingers involved.

I can see the appeal of cloud apps, available from any internet connection and with built-in backup, so you don't lose your data with you device. However, I have to say I'm with B.S. here. It's dangerous to have your data tied to the web or one particular application or service. I need to be able to present it in different (or at least open) forms, get access to it when I don't have a phone or WiFi signal and be able to archive it with my projects, in a form which can be read in the future. Bonsai, together with it's many export options, gives me that freedom. Remember the Milk and other cloud apps don't meet all the criteria.

Holding out for an Android or Blackberry version of Bonsai, sometime soon...?

Stéph

[rfay]

I used Bonsai from 2003 to 2010. I held off on a smartphone as long as I could, but now I'm carrying an android. I can barely live without Bonsai, and there's no reasonable equivalent (or even close).

Oh please! Make my life complete! Bonsai for Android!

[Wiseguy]

hey, maybe if we all write to Steuart Dewar, the genius creator of "Pimlical" – (the guy who won all the words for writing the best calendar program for the old Palm) – they called it "Datebook" – that guy can write anything – I know he is writing his Pimlical calendar program for android now – I heard he wants to have a beta out by the end of this year.maybe if we all start e-mailing him, imploring him to write a bonsai program for android – (just a thought) I totally agree with those who say, "screw the cloud!" – Just give me a way to sync it to my laptop, thank you. Google calendar is a pain in my android! R.

This post has been edited by Wiseguy: 10 November 2010 - 09:09 PM

[B.S.]

 Wiseguy, on 10 November 2010 - 09:06 PM, said:

hey, maybe if we all write to Steuart Dewar, the genius creator of "Pimlical" – (the guy who won all the words for writing the best calendar program for the old Palm) – they called it "Datebook" – that guy can write anything – I know he is writing his Pimlical calendar program for android now – I heard he wants to have a beta out by the end of this year.maybe if we all start e-mailing him, imploring him to write a bonsai program for android – (just a thought) I totally agree with those who say, "screw the cloud!" – Just give me a way to sync it to my laptop, thank you. Google calendar is a pain in my android! R.

Datebk, actually.

Why would we do that? Or, put another way, the issue is, I suspect, not Bonsai, it is the conduits.

Agreed, however, if Bonsai and Pimlical could put their heads together, possibly leading to a conduit Bonsai could take advantage of, then you'd have something. Lower learning curve, compatibility, etc., etc.

I doubt if an Android version of Bonsai would be hard - the hard part is the sync.

Note that Pimlical is a java application. I suspect the Android app will be the same. After all, once java, it could go anywhere. Again, the problem is the sync. e.g. If Pimlical ran under Linux/java, there is still the problem of interoperability and sync with korganizer. Let alone gnome / evolution.

Since Android doesn't have Palm Desktop, nor Bonsai for that matter (doesn't have Palm Desktop, let alone HotSync), the other problem is that they cannot leverage the calendaring infrastructure it brought to the party. So now Bonsai, Pimlical, whatever else, has to reinvent the wheel for the parts of Palm Desktop that aren't around.

It goes back to having standards.

No reason to rewrite Bonsai / reinvent the wheel - make it comfy within a new Android environment instead of a Palm environment, yes, but that's not the same thing. And the mind boggles a bit at the learning curve and complexity that one would have to go through to sink into it.

If Pimlical syncs to the cloud, and the PC app then syncs from it - then we've gained nothing. Not only is the data residing on the cloud, you have to incur the data charges to get it there. If it syncs between the PDA and the PC, then you have something, and perhaps Bonsai could leverage it. It's all about the sync. Infrastructure that Bonsai probably can't accomplish on its own, given limited resources.

Push for sync., not a rewrite.

[msquare]

As a pre user (classic)I have bt synching which for the most part has been fine.  On a long distance flight I was reminded what we have lost when I couldn't synch like I could when I was on the palm.  

[msquare]

As a pre user (classic)I have bt synching which for the most part has been fine.  On a long distance flight I was reminded what we have lost when I couldn't synch like I could when I was on the palm.  

[JDW]

B.S., on 05 October 2010 - 04:23 AM, said:

In some senses, the original poster does Natara, indeed, all app makers, a disservice.

IMO, the problem is not so much the app as there is no sync software upon which they can depend and build.

[...]

Perhaps, but this is certainly not an insurmountable barrier. The situation may have been easier with Palm providing a conduit system, but Natara still had to write the Bonsai conduit. I doubt it is so much more difficult to have Bonsai client sync directly with the desktop. I've also used Secret! on my Palms and Windows desktop for many years, and I'm pleased to see that they have an Android version that syncs directly with their Secret! desktop over WiFi.

From the lack of activity on the Natara site over the last year or so, I think it's more likely that they've simply lost interest in this project. Which is too bad, as I'm now contemplating a move to Android (it will have to happen at some point), and I'm wondering how to migrate my 14mb of Bonsai data...

John

[Wiseguy]

I'm in the process of moving from Treo 650 to Nexus One. It seems obvious to me that the majors; (Google, Verizon, etc.) are all agreed that the only way to hold on to their empire, is with the cloud, where they can charge for service. I can't imagine the hordes of us that really have no use for the cloud, (grew up on Palm) - won't be a driving force that will motivate third-party pgm writers to build some desktop sync pgms for Android!
I am by far not an expert on such things, but our old friend, Steuart Dewars, the genius that built the original "Datebook" pgms. for Palm, has already developed a desktop pgm called "Pimlical", and, I am told, is working very hard on an Android pgm that will not only sync with Google Calendar, if that's what you want, but will have the capability to sync directly with his desktop pgm, "Just like the old days". I think it's just possible that we are still in the wild-west days of Android, and that there is much better coming. I would be willing to pay Steuart whatever he wants, to make a way that we could avoid having to use the cloud, if we choose not to! And because his real passion is helping the guerrillas, I hope he is the first, and the best on the market, (again) - cause he deserves it!

[JDW]

I'm now moving to Android and have found 2 potential Bonsai alternatives for Android:

Outliner for Android (android-outliner.blogspot.com) can import Bonsai OTL files and will soon be able to sync with Bonsai desktop (via DropBox). It doesn't seem to support all the task features of Bonsai, but I don't use those (much) anyway. (I've used Bonsai mostly for text outlining.)

B-Folders (www.jointlogic.com) isn't such an easy migration path, but it does have a similar outline structure, and should be able to import Bonsai CSV exports. It's a Windows desktop app with a free Android app. The developers are willing to add features if there is demand, so take a look and, if you're interested, let them know what you'd like to see added.

Good luck in the post-Palm world!

[AlienAbductee]

It's disappointing to see one of primary tools just fade away. I'm moving to Android in August and I guess I'll have to start checking out the alternatives.

[B.S.]

 AlienAbductee, on 09 May 2011 - 11:59 AM, said:

It's disappointing to see one of primary tools just fade away.

Yep. Agreed. <deep sigh>

 AlienAbductee, on 09 May 2011 - 11:59 AM, said:

I'm moving to Android in August and I guess I'll have to start checking out the alternatives.

Although this Natara forum may not be an appropriate venue, I, for one, would appreciate your posting where you end up. Since I, as well, am keeping my eyes and ears open for the best alternative solution.

Everything I have seen and heard of to date indicates that all solutions involve gmail / google (calendar). Not only so much for keeping one's data out of the cloud, so much for task-centric data elements. Tasks can be added to a google calendar, sure, but they're missing the richness, depth, sophistication, and rich functionality that has always been present with Palm. There are reasons why tasks and calendars are separate things - to morph tasks into calendars does tasks a disservice, and loses worthy functionality. Sadly.

Good luck in your quest. Please do let us know how you make out.

[ToxJazz]

One other passionate & loyal Bonsai user here. I also carried around a m500 mostly for the Bonsai app. An "upgrade" to a Win7 64-bit machine killed HotSync and since I've been using the desktop app alone, but would love a return to the true functionality.

I, for one, am agnostic as to how I might sync - WiFi sounds like a good plan. But, I, like others, are surprised that such a loyal customer base isn't fodder for some business activity. Poll the users? Out-license the coding? Seems like there are lots of options.

I have an aging WinMobile phone that I haven't even tried to put Bonsai on. Rather, I, too am debating iPhone or Android. My guess is most of us Bonsai users are the more techie types, and may prefer Android. I know I'm leaning that way. Porting Bonsai to Android would seal the deal!

So one more passionate plea here for breathing new life into the best organizing software existing.

[brisk]

ToxJazz, on 10 May 2011 - 07:32 AM, said:

One other passionate & loyal Bonsai user here. I also carried around a m500 mostly for the Bonsai app. An "upgrade" to a Win7 64-bit machine killed HotSync and since I've been using the desktop app alone, but would love a return to the true functionality.

For USB Hotsync there is finally an official fix:

http://www.palminfoc...otsync-drivers/