[jharris2]

Reviewed the topics in the forum and didn't find one that seems to fit, so here goes for a newbie and first-time poster to this forum.

I'm evaluating Bonsai to replace the Palm Desktop as my to-do manager. For work, there is just too much to do and I'm simply getting out of control. Our company uses Lotus Notes, and I've never been impressed with its to-do functions, although the calendar, e-mail, and collaboration are excellent.

Environment is Palm i705 (yes, it's old but it was new when I got it!), Windows XP Pro SP1 on a laptop.

The way I've set up Bonsai is an outline for each major project. Then, use tasks for the workstreams to achieve each project and to-dos to detail the actions I need to do to accomplish the workstream. As an example, I'm using an outline to open a new business area, then workstreams (tasks) for things like understand the market, prepare for a major conference, etc. To-dos will include read market data, find a speaker for the conference, build the presentation, etc. I'm linking to-do's to the Palm To Do list, but it appears that changes between the two occur during a Hotsync.

So far, that setup seems to make sense to how my mind operates.

But, I'm looking now to find a way to look across all the projects to build a single, manageable to-do list of things that need to get done and in what order. Unfortunately, these projects run in parallel (as do the workstreams, obviously) and it seems to be a pain to open each project to see what needs to be done.

So, the question -- is this structure viable for Bonsai? Is someone in a similar environment that can provide insight?

So far, the product looks pretty good. I'm evaluating Shadow at the same time to try to make a side-by-side comparison.

Thanks in advance for the insight!

[ndench]

Hi John

As you've already seen for yourself, there are many different approaches that you can take, and often it's a question of finding a compromise between exactly what you want to do, and what the software is best at.

If you want to see a single list of all your to-dos, within Bonsai, then you really do have to have a single outline, which isn't as you have things set up currently. If that's really the way you want to go, then I strongly suggest you have a look at Bonsai's zoom functionality, which lets you zoom in or out of any branch, hiding any part of the outline that's not part of that sub-branch. In practice, it can make a single outline look like a bunch of separate outlines. I use a single outline for all my work projects, and if I just want to look at a specific project and forget about everything else, I just zoom into that project.

Another way you might approach the problem is to consider using the To-do app to look at all your to-dos, and come up with a consistent strategy for linking to-dos within Bonsai (which it sounds like you already have). For example, I link all my next actions (I use Bonsai to do GTD), and then use the To-do app to see a list of all my next actions, categorised according to context. It's a good way of letting me see what I have to do next, without getting bogged down by the whole planning side of things. From your description, however, it sounds like you might have more to-dos that you'd want to handle in the standard To-do app.

Another approcah might be to ditch the "all to-dos in one list" requirement, and set up a master outline which lists individual major projects, with outline links to your individual outlines. Use filters in each outline to let you see a list of all your to-dos for that outline, and then, although you can't see everything in one place, seeing what you want for any individual project would just be a couple of clicks away.

At the end of the day, I'd encourage you to play with different strategies, and to give yourself the freedom to try different things and not get locked into a particular way of thinking. From what you've described, I think that the "everything in one outline" approach is probably going to work best for you, but you may try other solutions and decide that you prefer them.

HTH

[jharris2]

Neal -

Thanks - very helpful.

The concern with using a single master outline is that the number of projects can quickly become unwieldy (I'm changing job responsibilities so it's rather low at about a half dozen major projects). I found over the weekend that the Palm Desktop to-do application does provide a single interface to the action items, so that may work.

You also mention GTD. I've only recently herad about the concept, so I'm not knowledgeable enough to know what you really mean. I read the posts in another thread and did not follow what the significance of the method was.

Another approach that could work -- if the functionality exists -- is to create a master outline that links in other outlines. I'd describe the concept as a parent/child relationship similar to what you have inside the outline. Does Bonsai have such funcitonality?

I'm also open to other suggestions. If someone has found the better method, I'm all ears!

Thanks again in advance!

[slwenglish]

Hi John,

1) GTD - I highly recommend you read a copy of David Allen's book, Getting Things Done: Link to Amazon. It's got some good techniques for managing the mass of tasks most of us usually end up taking on.

The method I use is a mix of this and Stephen Covey's 7 Habits (I use his "Roles and Goals" for reviewing my aims at a higher level than the task level).

2) Yes, you can set up a master outline with links out to all your project outlines. I arrange my master outline into branches for Personal, Home, Work and Community projects. When a project in one of these branches gets to more than a handfull of tasks, I break it out into its own outline, and leave a link from the master list. You'll see that the "link" field for your items can be used to set up an "outline" link.

Hope this helps,
Stéph

[ndench]

Hi John

GTD is a task management/organisation paradigm dreamt up by David Allen that has become very popular in the last few years. Not dissimilar to Franklin Covey, but, possibly, more straightforward. It all centers around having a good "collection" strategy for recording your thoughts and tasks, having a number of regular review processes to ensure the things you collect get organised sensibly, and having a clear and disciplined approach to deciding what your next action is at any given time and for any given project.

You'll find many resources on the web, so many that you'll probably feel overwhelmed. Here are a few:

Yahoo group GTD_Palm
David Allen's blog
Official GTD site
Another useful blog, with links to many more.

But I have to say, I only half got any of this, and I wasn't prepared to commit to the re-organisation, until I read the original book. When you read that, it all makes sense. Here's a link to the book on the UK Amazon site. If you're US based I'm sure you'll find it on the US site easily. You'll also be able to walk into just about any decent bookshop and find it.

On your point about master outlines: that was my third suggestion in my original post. The functionality does exist. However, you'll have to maintain links to the individual projects by hand, and you won't be able to see all your to-dos within one outline.

HTH

[ndench]

John,

You might also want to check out this thread that's currently going on in the Natara Community Discussion forum. Lots of pictures and descriptions.

[jharris2]

Quote

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Originally posted by: ndench
John,

You might also want to check out this thread that's currently going on in the Natara Community Discussion forum. Lots of pictures and descriptions.

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Neal -

That's the thread I was referring to that I couldn't follow. Sounds like I need to find the book, especially since I have about 12 hours in an airplane on Sunday....

Thanks all for the advice -- keep it coming!

[ndench]

Ah right, I missed that little detail! i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif

[patri]

Quote

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Originally posted by: slwenglish
Hi John,

1) GTD - I highly recommend you read a copy of David Allen's book, Getting Things Done: Link to Amazon. It's got some good techniques for managing the mass of tasks most of us usually end up taking on.

The method I use is a mix of this and Stephen Covey's 7 Habits (I use his "Roles and Goals" for reviewing my aims at a higher level than the task level).

2) Yes, you can set up a master outline with links out to all your project outlines. I arrange my master outline into branches for Personal, Home, Work and Community projects. When a project in one of these branches gets to more than a handfull of tasks, I break it out into its own outline, and leave a link from the master list. You'll see that the "link" field for your items can be used to set up an "outline" link.

Hope this helps,
Stéph

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Hi, Could you tell me how you built that mix of GTD and 7 Habits, please? Thanks

[TMDH]

John,
Sounds like you & I have similar issues. However, I have tried several ways to organize data and am pleased with the way I am doing it now. Although I link many tasks to the Palm To-Do app, I've learned to abandon the Palm To-Do list. Rather, I use just Bonsai on the desktop and the Bonsai palm to handle everything. My thinking is keep it simple. Less headaches with one outline as you will find Bonsai is quite powerful with filters, etc.
I have one outline called Projects. My top level is for each of the four major areas of organization I need (level 1) such as Factory, Corportate, Home. Beneath each top level, the next level is for "projects" (level 2). Here are the main "projects" listed such as "install a new widget machine". At this level, I can add notes for the project, prioritize my projects, and categorize the projects. I set all of these projects as a record type "Task" (In Bonsai language, a "Task" is made up of several "To Do" steps.) I use two categories for projects; "Focus" for projects that require some current attention and "TBA" for projects/Ideas I'm considering or haven't committed to starting just yet. You can set up a filter that shows records that are of the type "Task" and are in the category "Focus". This produces an organized, prioritized list of projects including notes if you wish.

The next level (level 3) is all of the tasks related to the project. These tasks can be added to GTD categories; @Office, @Home, @Factory, @Waiting for, etc. My 2nd filter is called "@Due A-Today" which displays items of the type "To Do" that are in the category "A-Today". (hint, check the flat display box to clean the list up.) I also have a category called "B-Tomorrow" which is for items to do once the "A-Today" items are done.

As Neal mentioned, you can use the ZOOM feature to drill down into a project, add/edit steps, print it, etc.
Each day, I peruse the list of Focus projects, drill down, and add/edit the To Do's within each project. I try to avoid using the due date field and have found it cleaner to put more urgent items in the "A-Today" category. I can right click on a records category or priority to massage my list. My goal is to begin each day with a fresh daily "To Do" list for all items, but multiple projects.
Again, once I effectively abandoned the Palm To-Do list, everything became much simpler. Good luck and you won't find a better program. Bonsai is not perfect, but it's so much better than anything else out there AND these guys actively manage their software and continue to improve it.

-Dave

[jharris2]

Quote

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Originally posted by: TMDH My top level is for each of the four major areas of organization I need (level 1) such as Factory, Corportate, Home. Beneath each top level, the next level is for "projects" (level 2). Here are the main "projects" listed such as "install a new widget machine". At this level, I can add notes for the project, prioritize my projects, and categorize the projects. I set all of these projects as a record type "Task" (In Bonsai language, a "Task" is made up of several "To Do" steps.) I use two categories for projects; "Focus" for projects that require some current attention and "TBA" for projects/Ideas I'm considering or haven't committed to starting just yet. You can set up a filter that shows records that are of the type "Task" and are in the category "Focus". This produces an organized, prioritized list of projects including notes if you wish.

The next level (level 3) is all of the tasks related to the project. These tasks can be added to GTD categories; @Office, @Home, @Factory, @Waiting for, etc. My 2nd filter is called "@Due A-Today" which displays items of the type "To Do" that are in the category "A-Today". (hint, check the flat display box to clean the list up.) I also have a category called "B-Tomorrow" which is for items to do once the "A-Today" items are done.

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Dave -

What do you use for the level 1 entries -- "simple" or "task"?

Thanks!

[TMDH]

John,
At level 1, I make all my items "tasks", blank priority, blank due date. I use the level one like a master menu, similar to where you enter this bulletin board.
Since you asked i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif...........Besides the 4 primary areas on level 1, I also found it helpful to have 4 more items for scheduled transactions for each of the 4 groups. Here is where I put reoccuring things like deliver paychecks, send monthly invoices, etc. These items are date specific, so I am able to monitor them quite easily. When the due date arrives and I perform the To Do, I right click on the date and set the next due date whether it be 2 weeks from now or 1 month from now. I can also add the due item (or almost due) to my A-Today category, thus it will appear on my filtered A-Due Today list.
I struggled for a long time with a variety of systems. I even abandoned Bonsai for a while because I found myself unable to keep up with maintaining the due dates, etc. I read another article about organizing on the Palm, and the author did not use Due Dates except as a reminder for things that had to happen on a certain day. Instead, the author suggested using 3 categories; A-Today, B-Tomorrow, and C-Weekend. Then, while within those categories you could simply modify priorities and your list was up to speed. This author was promoting life with just the built in Palm applications. I tried it and it was very simple and very powerful, but I quickly ran into the inability to organize my projects w/their supporting to do steps.
I applied this concept to Bonsai, and here's where I am. I modified it to work for me. I dropped the "C-Weekend" category. My To-Do's are all in one of three categories; "A-Today", "B-Tomorrow", or "TBA-(level 1 name)".
My Projects (Bonsai Tasks) are all in on of two categories: "TBA-Focus" for projects that need attention now, and "TBA-(level 1 name)" for projects that haven't been started, aren't active, etc.....things I don't want to work on now, but don't want to forget.
Use the 2 filters:
1)TBA-Focus will show Projects only that need attention now.......the bigger picture......from all 4 areas of responsibility (Factory, corporate, building mgr, home).
2)A-Today will show To-Do's that I intend to work on now/today/this week........from ALL projects from ALL 4 levels of responsibility.
Finally, besides the 2 main filters, I have built about a dozen other filters for easier data maintenance (show completed items, show unlinked To-Do's, etc).
I mentioned also that I am still linked to Palm To-Do, but don't use it. I LOVE the re-sorting in the Palm To-Do app. It makes re-organizing a list very simple. But......It is very difficult to manage multiple projects. I will probably discontinue my Palm To-Do links as I don't use them, but thought I would at the time I set this up. I keep coming back to Bonsai, and found with a good organization strategy it works wonderfully.
-Dave

[jharris2]

OK, I have another stupid question. When I mark a to do complete in either the Palm ToDo application or in Bonsai, it does not seem to carry over to the other. I have checked and all the to dos in question are supposed to be linked.

Am I missing something obvious? I thought that linking the to dos would ensure that both were updated.

On a separate note, I found Getting Things Done at the local bookstore and am now reading it. Cost was less than I would have paid for it at an online seller plus shipping, and getting it right away means I can read it while on this business trip. Thanks for the tips!

[TMDH]

I'm not positive, but I think To Do items in both applications need to have the same category. Did you check the help files? Also, if you update an item on your Bonsai Desktop, it requires 2 hot-syncs to update in all locations. Also, check to see if your outline is set up to synch. There's probably better qualified people to address this.
-Dave

[ndench]

It's not so much that To-Dos have to have the same category; it's more that they're given the same category if at all possible. If you have an item in Bonsai with category "Foo", and link it to the To-DO database, then it will be given the Foo category if that category exists in your To-Do database, and it will be left as Unfiled otherwise. Either way, if the item is marked as complete in either application, it should be kept in sync.

The "double sync" issue may well be the reason you're not seeing things completed. I can' t think of anything else.

Glad you found the book -- hope you enjoy it. A good tip I discovered was, after you've read it and put any system in place that you want, read it again in 3-4 months time. You'll be surprised what else you get out of it and how it will help you keep your system fresh.

[jharris2]

Quote

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Originally posted by: ndench
It's not so much that To-Dos have to have the same category; it's more that they're given the same category if at all possible. If you have an item in Bonsai with category "Foo", and link it to the To-DO database, then it will be given the Foo category if that category exists in your To-Do database, and it will be left as Unfiled otherwise. Either way, if the item is marked as complete in either application, it should be kept in sync.

The "double sync" issue may well be the reason you're not seeing things completed. I can' t think of anything else.

Glad you found the book -- hope you enjoy it. A good tip I discovered was, after you've read it and put any system in place that you want, read it again in 3-4 months time. You'll be surprised what else you get out of it and how it will help you keep your system fresh.

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I'll double-check the sync issue to see if it's a double-sync problem. I'm also having some difficulty with Hotsync, so perhaps that is the issue.

Good advice on the subject of re-reading the book.

[jharris2]

OK, I have merged the separate outlines into a single outline. Using a "simple" level to indicate the focus area, a task for a project or subproject, and to-dos for individual action items. For priority, using 1 to indicate next action needed for a task (yes, I read Getting Things Done on the last trip).

I have a filter that shows the items due today, one for this week, etc. The today filter helps to focus on the stuff that really needs to get done right away.

So far seems to be working OK, but curious if anyone else has a similar setup to make suggestions/tweaks, or if they abandoned it for something else.

[ndench]

OK, here's my setup in brief

(Little aside: I did promise TomFord I'd mail him with details of my setup, but I think I've lost the original mail and can't find his address, so I hope he's listening here)

I use two outlines: one for home and one for business. I prefer to make the split that way, but I think putting both in one outline would work just as well for some people.

Each top level item is a project. Below that I have four sub-items:

(Optional) to-do: target end date. This lets me record the end date I'm aiming for in a way that doesn't affect roll-up of dates in any of the other sub-items. It's just a convenient way for me to write down when I think the porject might be finished when I first set it up.

simple: Support material. Any support material for the project that I want to keep in Bonsai I'll add here. Sometimes (e.g. if I have a lot of material in an email, or in hard copy) I won't copy the material across, just add a note of where it is.

task: Actions. All sub-items in this are the actions for my project and are to-dos, with the category set to the appropriate context (Calls, Errands, etc -- I don't bother with the @ symbol). The next action is marked by linking to the to-do (I don't bother unlinking completed next actions).

task: Waiting for. All sub-items are to-dos, with the category set to Waiting. Nearly always linked to a To-do so that I can see all my waiting fors in one place.

I try to set sensible start and due dates for all to-do items, and colour my outline so that things coming up in the next week show as blue, and things that are overdue show as red.

That's it. I don't make much use of filters or views (although will occasionally, on a kind of one-off basis, and have use them more in the past), and tend to use the standard To-do application to look at upcoming things. I make some use of keywords for showing items as in progress, and contacts when I want to remember who might, for example, be a good technical resource for a project, but only on an as-needed basis, not as part of the "process".

I have a Bonsai file that I use as a template for setting up new projects quickly and easily. I have a basic project set up that will just copy in the items mentioned above, with categories set appropriately, and I have another one which uses the same set up, but has a number of predefined actions, which is specific to particular work projects that I have. To use it as a template I just copy the appropriate branch and paste it in either my home or my work projects outline as appropriate.

I also use a single outline to record Someday/Maybe information, categorised and structured as required.

I also have a completed projects outline. One of the tasks of my weekly review is to move any projects which have reached completion into this outline. I don't sync this outline with my Palm.

I record appointments and ticklers in datebk5, but, to be honest, find that I'm using fewer and fewer of its power features as time goes on. If it wasn't for the icons and tiny fonts I could easily abandon it.

Notepad is my main inbox. I try to be disciplined about jotting everything down in there, though I'm sure I don't do a very good job of it. Almost everything that gets jotted down there will end up as a to-do (for next actions that aren't linked to projects), as a Bonsai to-do (for actions that are linked to projects) or an appointment in datebk5. I use RakuDA as a quick way of adding to-dos (though I wish it would let me assign a category directly, rather than making me go back to the To-do app every time I purge my inbox).

DayNotez acts as a kind of retrospective inbox. I use it for journalling what I've done with the day, and then review it as part of my weekly review (creating new actions etc as required based on what's in there), and also for writing up a weekly report of my activities that I'm required to provide at work. DayNotez is less immediate than Notepad, so I tend not to use it for moments of inspiration, or things that might require a quick turnaround, but anything that can wait till the weekly review goes into DayNotez.

And yes, I do use priorities, despite what DA says about them. And yes, I do date my to-dos, even though, strictly speaking, that means they should probably be represented as ticklers. I guess that in these situations I regard priorities and dates as things to aim for, rather than drop dead dates. The distinction between an action with a date and a tickler in datebk is a fluid thing, as far as I'm concerned.

[slwenglish]

In reply to patri's request for a run down on my Steven Covey / David Allen hybrid system, I'll start a new thread as this one's getting quite long and my reply may be going a bit off topic.

Link to my new post